by Jeb Wright
Thirty-years ago, the band Kansas were
riding a wave of success that most bands only dream about.
Back-to-back, triple platinum albums catapulted them to the
height of being the most successful band to ever come out of
their home state. The band were not just at the apex of
their commercial success, they were selling out tours from
coast-to-coast. The band, and their record company, decided
it was time to capture Kansas in their most natural habitat,
live in concert. In 1978, the band released Two For the
Show, recorded during the Point of Know Return
tour. The double-live album went double platinum, a rare
feat for in-concert offerings.
Now, Legacy Recordings has
re-released Two For the Show, featuring several songs
originally recorded during the tour but never released. The
result is a powerful album made even more powerful with the
inclusion of the ‘lost songs’. The CD booklet features new
photographs and new liner notes, written by yours truly.
Classic Rock Revisited caught up
with guitarist Richard Williams, a founding member of the
band, to discuss the recording of the live album. During our
interview, Rich and I also discuss the early days of the
band, the ‘other’ live album, Device-Voice-Drum, and
why a new Kansas album is probably not going to happen
anytime soon.
Jeb: I want to talk about the 30th
anniversary release of your live album, Two for The Show.
The album has grown now and includes a bunch of never
released versions of several songs.
Rich: When we originally made for
Two for The Show, we didn’t go into the studio and
mix everything and pick and choose. We listened to a few
things and then took what would make an album and mixed that
stuff. The rest of it just went on the shelf and we never
thought of using it for anything else. Thirty years later,
we had the opportunity to re-release it and add to the
original. Technology-wise, the tapes had to be resurrected.
Thirty years later the tapes were disintegrating. Jeff
Glixman has been involved with Sony for some time preserving
tapes. You have to bake them in an oven. You get one chance
to run it through the multi-track and transfer it over to
digital. Jeff was the perfect choice to do this, with his
expertise, and with his history with the band. Jeff was the
sound man when we recorded Two for The Show.
Jeb: He goes back as far as the
band.
Rich: He was one of the engineers
on the first album. It was produced by Wally Gold, who sat
in a chair and said, "Okay, that’s enough." Jeff was the one
at the board. Jeff has a tremendous facility that he works
in now. In keeping with the nature of the original project,
it was all mixed the same way. He used high quality old
analog gear. The mixing was not even automated, it was hands
on mixing. We were all reaching over each other’s shoulders
to do fades. There were no gizmos or anything.
When we first recorded the album,
we wanted it to be just like what happened on stage. We
simply mixed it and didn’t do any repairs. We wanted the
re-release to be done the same way. There were no over-dubs
and there was no sweetening things thirty-years later. It
was a documentary of what happened that night, not only on
how we played, but also with the technology of how it was
made.
Jeb: I had not listened to this for
a long time. You guys were doing a lot of cool stuff. "Dust
in the Wind" has the extra acoustic part and "Miracles Out
Of Nowhere" has extra parts in it. These are not just
recreations of the studio songs.
Rich: We were always rearranging
things and making segues into things. It is more fun that
way, and it keeps it from being, "Thank you. Next. Thank
you. Next." It is nice to go from song-to-song sometimes. We
learned a big lesson when we got the first tour with Mott
the Hoople. We got that tour handed to us a week before it
was scheduled to start. The reason we got the tour is Queen,
who were touring Sheer Heart Attack, were going up
the charts. Queen got their own headlining tour.
Communications thirty-three years ago were not what they are
today. Many people were going to the show to see Queen and
not Mott the Hoople. The lights would go out and you would
hear, "Ladies and gentleman: Kansas." Everyone would go,
"Who?" On my deathbed I am going to hear people chanting,
"QUEEN." We learned at some point not to stop for anything.
We put as many songs together as we could. We didn’t want to
give them a chance to breath.
Jeb: You guys also opened some
shows early on for Hawkwind, Lemmy’s band before Motorhead.
Rich: Lemmy hasn’t changed much. I
don’t know if I have ever heard a note of Motorhead, but we
did open seven or eight shows for Hawkwind early on. I
didn’t get them at all. One night, we were in Chicago, in a
rough part of town, playing in this ballroom. They had this
girl and she was all fucked up. She was running around naked
and crawling under the piano. It was amazing. They would eat
acid and turn on that Jefferson Airplane, Jell-O shit behind
them and make some noise.
Jeb: As you listen to Two For
The Show, were there any smiles at remembering that era?
Rich: The one that got me was "The
Spider." I had not heard us play that, probably since then.
I want to do that again. It is so much more powerful live.
We just have to talk Steve [Walsh] into it.
Jeb: I really dug "Child of
Innocence."
Rich: It wouldn’t surprise me if we
add that to the show next year either. We were doing that
one when Robby was in the band, but then he didn’t want to
do it anymore. Songs get tired. You listen to it and think
that it is a cool song, but you get tired of playing it. Now
that David Ragsdale is back in the band, we can double the
guitar parts again. I definitely have to talk them into
"Spider," though. I think we can get Steve to do it if we
gang up on him. I don’t know why he wouldn’t want to because
it would save his voice as there is no singing and he also
wrote it. It also kicks butt. I would love to do it. The
original starts with just keyboards but I like how we did it
live where we just bust into it. We could do it and then go
right into "Portrait" as it was written.
Jeb: When Two For The Show
came out you were on top of your game. It was after the
first five albums. You were veterans of going into the
studio. How was this experience of doing a live different?
Rich: It was one-two-three go. It
was time to do a live album. I remember, vividly, many times
during that era going, "Fuck that. No more live recordings."
Everybody gets so tense. If you have one little equipment
problem then everything goes to shit. I remember going into the
dressing room many times during the recordings and people
going, "Never again. We will never record anything live ever
again." There is just too much pressure.
Jeb: You got over that. It is a
staple in the catalog.
Rich: You record over several
nights so you get used to it. When we did
Device-Voice-Drum, it was nerve-racking as hell. A) We
funded it. B) It was all shot on film, which costs a
fortune. We only had enough film for that night. We couldn’t
come back the next night and redo it. It was a one-time
show. People said not to get nervous but we knew it was
going to be recorded and shown forever. If you would’ve
fallen down and busted your ass then it was going to be
there forever. With Two For The Show, we did know we
would have different nights we would be recording. There
were also a lot of radio shows that were going on then and
they were nerve-racking. They were actually worse because
you have no control over it; they are going out live over
the airwaves. You would have no idea what it sounded like
because somebody with the radio show was mixing it. We
finally moved Glixman to the broadcast truck and had him do
it and we moved somebody else out front. That would make you
nervous too because you wondered if it sounded like shit out
front. It is always something.
Jeb: One thing I appreciate about
your playing is that you use the guitar to accomplish many
musical ideas. Most rock bands have the guitar way out front
and they don’t change much. You use the guitar as a lead
instrument, an accompaniment instrument, as an orchestral
instrument and as an acoustic instrument.
Rich: Adding a violin gave the band
another voice. All of a sudden, you had three parts of an
ensemble. You had a guitar line, a violin line and a
keyboard line and that gave us three different voices from
an orchestra. We would also break away at times and the
guitar would be really powerful; other times, it would be
nonexistent. You can also use the guitar and the violin
together as they are very complementary. The next thing you
know, you have the guitar sounding more like the violin and
the violin sounding more like the guitar and they create
their own instrument. When they play in unison then it
really creates another voice and then you play them an
octave apart and there is another voice. There is a lot of
flexibility within those two instruments playing together.
Jeb: Would you say Two For The
Show was the peak of the band Kansas?
Rich: It was the height of it all.
I remember when Monolith came out it was a big
disappointment because it only went platinum. Until then, it
was always growing and growing. With Two For The Show,
we didn’t expect it to outsell Leftoverture or
Point of No Return. Traditionally, live albums did not
sell as well as studio albums, unless you are Peter Frampton
or Cheap Trick. Two For The Show came out and went
double platinum and we were thrilled. Monolith came
out and went platinum and it was disappointing. I would love
that disappointment now.
Jeb: From 1974 to 1978 Kansas went
from being a bar band to being an arena headliner. You were
still in your twenties. How did you handle it?
Rich: We didn’t have any experience
on how to handle it. For me personally, looking back on it,
it was a very cool time. As it was happening, we were in a
daze by it all. Today, I enjoy this more now than I ever
did. I can enjoy it in the moment. There is something about
living in the moment that is more satisfying. Back then it
was, "What the fuck is this? What the fuck is that?"
Everything was so new that we didn’t have anything to
compare it to.
Jeb: Do you appreciate it more now
or do you actually like it more?
Rich: All of it. I like the travel
and I like the comradery. I like meeting people and going
places and seeing friends everywhere I go. I have made peace
with all the shitty parts, like the travel. I don’t care
anymore. There are twenty-four hours in a day and I have to
wait it out somewhere. The plane could be an hour late, so I
am in the airport. On the other hand, I would just be
waiting in a hotel room anyway, so what’s the difference. It
used to always be "Hurry to get to the gig" and then "Hurry
to get back to the hotel room." Fuck all of that.
This reminds me of a joke. There is
a big pasture with big rolling hills. Standing on top of the
hill are an old bull and a young one. Down below is the
herd. The young bull is snorting away, blowing snot and
getting all crazy. He says, "Let’s go down there and fuck
one of them cows." He is excited as hell. "Come on pop,
let’s run down there and fuck one of em. Let’s run down
there now." The older bull looks at him and says, "Son, we
don’t need to run down there and fuck one of them. We can
walk down there and fuck them all." I look at life that way
now. I take my time and appreciate it all.
Jeb: Kansas used to have more time
on stage then than you do now. Does it bother you that you
don’t get to play as long as you want to play now?
Rich: Ninty-nine percent of the
time, we still headline. Usually, it is at a place like a
casino. They want us to play seventy-five minutes. I would
rather play two-hours but not everybody in the band feels
the way I do. Some people want to save a little bit for
tomorrow but I say we should just lay it all out there now.
I would even settle for ninety minutes every night. If there
were two people there, or two hundred thousand people, I
would like to play ninety minutes. I would like to do that.
I volunteer to do that every night for the rest of my life.
Jeb: You were putting together a
band called Native Window a while back. Has the side project
died down or is it still alive?
Rich: It is still alive but Kansas
has been way too busy. We will pick it up again this fall
when things start to slow down. We are funding the entire
project ourselves, between Phil [Ehart], Billy [Greer],
David and myself. Billy lives in another town. We try to do
this as we are coming through Atlanta. Billy just stays
around when we do that and that kind of helps with the
expense of things.
Jeb: Why not just make it a Kansas
album?
Rich: There are way too many
reasons to list. There are legal obligations with the record
companies where they say we have to do this or that. We are
doing Native Window more out of frustration from that.
Jeb: You have rules that you have
to follow in order for it to be Kansas?
Rich: Every time Kansas comes up,
we are suddenly all back in junior high seeing who can piss
the furthest. I don’t know why that is but it is. Between
that, and the legalities, and the will of people, and the
material– there are too many things. Times have also
changed. We don’t have to put out a new album. We are
wanting to do more symphony dates next year. If we get a
symphony that makes sense, then we would like to film it and
do a DVD. If we did that then it would be great to have a
couple of new songs. We could have new Kansas material
released in that way. There would not be a new studio album,
but there would be a couple of new songs out on the DVD. A
good example of that is the Eagles. They released a great
song on their last DVD. If you want the song, then you have
to buy the DVD. We can do anything we want. We don’t need to
come up with ten or eleven songs that all make some sort of
sense for today. We can also just go in and record seven or
eight songs and make them available as a download. We have a
lot of options.
Jeb: I am still old school and
think everything has to be in album format.
Rich: Here is the bitter truth: The
Rolling Stones will go out and sell fifty billion dollars
worth of concert tickets. They will put out a new album and
when they play a new song from it, everybody goes to take a
piss, get a beer and buy a T-shirt. Nobody cares. Your
diehard Rolling Stones, who would buy anything that any of
them ever did, will have it. But for the masses, it doesn’t
matter. For Kansas, the same is true. The diehards can’t
wait for another album and they can’t believe we don’t have
another one by now. But for what we do everyday to feed the
bulldog and to stay afloat, it just doesn’t matter. Radio
won’t care and the general public won’t care. It makes it
awfully hard to get up for stopping the Kansas machine
completely and going through the enormously painful process
of recording a Kansas album under all of the conditions that
must be met.
Jeb: I interviewed Phil a while
back and he was talking behind your back. He said that he
thought you were more into Kansas now than you were back
when the band was selling millions of albums. Do you agree
with his take on things?
Rich: I would agree with that.
Jeb: Were you the silent member
back then? If so, then how did your role change?
Rich: Back then in the studio, we
had time schedules and it was really like, "Do your part and
get the fuck out of here." When we did Drastic Measures,
Kerry, at that point, was only involved in his songs. If it
was a song written by John Elefante, then Kerry wasn’t even
there. Dave was just there punching the clock. Neither one
of them really wanted to be there. I love Dave and I get
emails from him everyday, so this is not a slight on him in
any way. One time in the studio, John, Phil and I were
busting our ass in the studio trying to get everything done.
Dave was on the couch in front of the console. He stood up,
serious as a heart attack, very annoyed and he blurted out,
"You just can’t get any sleep in here" and then he walked
out the door.
My efforts and interest were a lot
more by then because there was some slack that had to be
picked up. Dave and Kerry wanted to be somewhere else, doing
something else and that is what they ended up doing soon
thereafter.
Jeb: Talk about picking up slack,
you were the star of the video "Fight Fire With Fire."
Rich: Oh God... that fucking red
hat.
Jeb: What ever happened to that
hat?
Rich: That had was made for the
video. It was a paper mache hat. Somebody said, "We need to
make a really evil looking hat." It ended up looking like a
dented frisbee. There are things today, that if I had to do
them over, I would not do. For instance, when somebody said,
"Here, put this hat on," I would have said, "Fuck you. I
will shit in that hat but I am not wearing it."
Jeb: There is also the "Point of
Know Return" video.
Rich: That is classic to me now.
That encapsulates the cheesiness of that era and what was
being done with very early video effects. The first time I
saw that I was slack jawed and ashamed. Now when I see it, I
just howl.
Jeb: You are a music lover. When
you look at Kansas and the history of the band, what are you
most proud of and what would you have liked to be different?
Rich: I am most proud of
Device-Voice-Drum. I love the way it looks and the way
it sounds. When I put it on a big screen and put it on Dolby
5.0, then it is just like being at a concert. It is the
closest that I have ever come to seeing us live. It is the
most true, live concert thing that we have ever done. I like
us live the best and I think it really captured the whole
visual aspect, as well as the music.
What could have been different?
Vinyl Confessions is something that I wish we could burn
and start over. I don’t like much of anything about it,
starting with the cover. Both of the covers with Elefante
blow. On Drastic Measures, the concept was good, but
it just ended up not working. We went there for the photo
shoot and we were not happy. They changed the logo on us
too. It is a back shelf, ninty-nine cent rack at Kmart
release. That was not even us on the cover but too many
people ended up thinking that it was us on the cover. We
always signed it above the person that people thought was
us. That cover and album just did not work. Nothing about
that was Leftoverture or Point of Know Return.
Drastic Measures really sucks. There are a lot of
things during that era that I would change.
Jeb: One album I really liked that
I wish you would play something live off of is Audio
Visions. "Relentless" and "Curtain of Iron" were great
songs.
Rich: It has some great stuff on
it. It is a good record. [Pauses and sighs] Here is where
you start getting into why Kerry left, why Dave left, why
Steve left, and why Steve won’t sing those songs. Prior to
that, Kansas was in an inspirational band and not a
religious band. Once Kerry started going from, "I wonder
if..." to "Here is what it is..." some of the magic was
gone. When you are preaching to the choir– the common man
likes to be inspired and not preached too. That album was a
little more preachy. Steve, being the voice of the band, had
to sing things that he wasn’t comfortable with singing.
Nobody ever cared about the lyrics before, but these were
not inspirational; they were preachy. "The Wall" is a very
inspirational song. You can find inspiration from that song
if you are a Buddhist or if you are a Christian. Once it
became about songs that were Christian-based, then the magic
was gone.
Jeb: Bringing back to the modern
day, you seem to be playing well on stage. Ragsdale seems to
be an inspirational guy to Kansas. You are all more lively
on stage and you are a tighter band on stage.
Rich: David is such a tremendous
musician. He brings a lot to the table. No baggage comes
with Dave as he will play all night, every night and he is
always glad to be there. He doesn’t go, "Oh, I don’t want to
play that fucking song" or "I only want to play for
seventy-five minutes." If you set them up then Dave will
knock them down. He is always happy and glad to be there and
he never bitches or complains. He elevates everybody’s game.
Jeb: My last one is not a question,
it is a thank you. I was allowed to write the liner notes
for the 30th anniversary of Two for the Show
and it was a career highlight for me.
Rich: You did a great job. It
really added a lot to the package. Everything about the
package is new, so we needed some new liner notes. We went
to you to bring some new liner notes to bring the album into
this century. With the new booklet and the extra songs, it
is really a stand alone project.
Jeb: Does it seem strange to you
that after all of these years there is still a guy sitting
in his living room listening to Kansas at any given time on
any given day?
Rich: As long as he has got his
pants on...
Jeb: Okay, this is really the last
one. Did Jim Morrison really sit in with Kansas for his last
gig?
Rich: It was the band before Kansas
called White Clover. I was in White Clover in 1969, during
the winter. We were living in New Orleans then. That summer,
there was a different version that Phil was in. He was the
only person that ended up in Kansas that was in that band.
They played the New Orleans Pop Festival and the Doors were
on that show. Later that night, they were playing at this
place called The Roach, where we used to play. Jim came in
there and sat in with them. It was the last time that he
ever performed.
I actually have a better story than
that one. The next version of White Clover had Phil, Dave
and myself in it. There was this place called The Warehouse
that had just opened up. It held about nine hundred people
in it— there were not seats, they just threw carpet remnants
on the floor. The Grateful Dead were going to be playing
there. We went down there to see the Dead and their
equipment broke and they ended up doing this acoustic show.
We went back to our band house afterwards— it was more like
a commune. This girl that lived with us named Tippy came
walking in the door with Jerry Garcia. It was about eleven
o’clock at night. We sat up in the kitchen and talked all
night. We talked about how fucked up Bob Weir was and how
much acid he was eating and how he was not playing good. It
was weird listening to someone from the Grateful Dead talk
about drug problems.
I was about nineteen at the time
and Jerry was probably about twenty-five, so he was like the
elder statesman. I thought he was Old Man River at the time.
The sun started to come up, so we jumped in our Volkswagen
van and dropped him off at his hotel in the French Quarter.
When he walked in, he got busted. There had been a raid at
the hotel and the entire band got busted. The news spread
quickly. The next year the song "Truckin’‘ came out and had
the line, "Busted, down on Bourbon Street." I’m the one who
dropped him off.
I always wanted to run into Jerry
Garcia again. I know he would remember getting busted, but I
wonder if he would remember the night before, when he stayed
up all night talking to a local band. I wonder if he knew
that local band actually became Kansas later. I have always
wondered about that but I never ran into him again.
